Mob TP; petition/plea/cry for help

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Treble
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:27 pm

Mob TP; petition/plea/cry for help

Post by Treble » Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:53 am

I didn't post this in the bug forum because I'm under the impression that at this time, everything is believed to be functioning correctly and I'll be the first to admit that I have no solid data but memory and various youtube videos that anyone can find with a search from the past to go on, but I did play retail from 2004 to late 2013 and I have to say that mob TP gain is wildly inaccurate right now.

If it was just me feeling that this was the case, I would be willing to recant this on just a shoddy memory, but almost every single player I have spoken to on the server, cross-LS and in various level ranges have all agreed that the recent mob TP adjustments really screwed up gameplay. Mobs should not EVER be able to TP > auto attack > TP, particularly not in a standard XP party (this is excluding extreme situations in a zerg scenario where a mob has 3 K-club DRKs with soul voiced march on them feeding TP; this is just a generic XP party in which a well geared group of 6 60+s can't go beyond chain 3 without having to stop and rest because the mob is just destroying everyone).

I would love to be able to review the data that was used to reach this calculation because it baffles me how this is considered accurate and era.

Deepupu
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:20 pm

Re: Mob TP; petition/plea/cry for help

Post by Deepupu » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:06 am

I've noticed mobs spamming TP moves in standard xp parties as well even as low as qufim.

nik
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:06 pm

Re: Mob TP; petition/plea/cry for help

Post by nik » Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:35 pm

The current system is ridiculous to say the least. All respect to you Icon and NorthernLights (I love the server) but this change makes me question if you test these things properly. Just as Treble I've heard of no one not annoyed by these changes.

I've touched on this subject a bit in the past but I'd like to say it again. I'm convinced you have several competent and experienced players on this server willing to help you beta test things before they get added to the server. I'm not sure if it's your ambition but if you want the server to keep growing making changes like this will make you lose players. It has happened in the past over other things and now it'll most likely again.

Zuri
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 5:22 pm

Re: Mob TP; petition/plea/cry for help

Post by Zuri » Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:01 pm

Agree 100% with what's been said above. I almost don't even want to exp right now because even normal mobs are such a pain.

All it takes is a little bad luck on TP move selection for any of the following to happen in a normal (well-equipped) EXP party:
- Crabs spam Defense Boost faster than a bard and a red mage combined can dispel it.
- Pugils spam Water Ball faster than you can spam Curaga. (Literally almost wiped to Water Ball[!] last night with a great party setup.)
- Birds spam Wing Cutter, which is probably the least threatening case I'm going to list here, but still shreds level-appropriate paladins. (side note: this is much more manageable with good defense food, but as most defense food is fish-based our options are currently limited.)
- Dhalmels heal forever, and/or just tap dance stomp you to death.

Haven't tried exping on flies yet, but I imagine it involves lots of praying for poison so you don't wipe to Cursed Sphere every other mob.

Someone mentioned these changes were based on "months of research", which has become a bit of a meme. If this is true, where is all the data that would take months to sift through that leads to the conclusion that this TP system is correct? I would honestly love to look through it myself.

Something is wrong.

Icon
Posts: 401
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:26 am

Re: Mob TP; petition/plea/cry for help

Post by Icon » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:09 pm

Zuri wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:01 pm
Someone mentioned these changes were based on "months of research", which has become a bit of a meme. If this is true, where is all the data that would take months to sift through that leads to the conclusion that this TP system is correct? I would honestly love to look through it myself.
Treble wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:53 am
I would love to be able to review the data that was used to reach this calculation because it baffles me how this is considered accurate and era.
It's already been posted: http://kupoffxi.net/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=692#p2136

We are doing our best to recreate the retail experience. If there are issues with the server we've always been willing to act on evidence. I would hope the patch notes and our comments to bug posts have been more than enough evidence of this.

Zuri
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 5:22 pm

Re: Mob TP; petition/plea/cry for help

Post by Zuri » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:50 pm

Icon wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:09 pm
It's already been posted: http://kupoffxi.net/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=692#p2136
I overlooked that thread, thank you for linking it. I'm skeptical, but I'll read up and test.
Icon wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:09 pm
We are doing our best to recreate the retail experience. If there are issues with the server we've always been willing to act on evidence. I would hope the patch notes and our comments to bug posts have been more than enough evidence of this.
Let me take a step back and say that no one doubts you guys are doing your best to make the server awesome. Hopefully this thread does not come off as disrespectful or unappreciative of that fact, because that is absolutely not the intent. I love this server and I appreciate all the work you guys put into it. But this change concerns me.

It's hard to sound constructive here because it's difficult to pinpoint the problem and provide a potential fix. Whether the point of failure is the data these formulas were built on, their implementation, or something else entirely, I don't know. What I do know is wiping to Water Ball was never a thing. I tried to provide real examples of things I'm seeing in-game after this change as an account of what might be wrong. I'll read up on the links you've provided and see what I can do about hard numbers as well.

Icon
Posts: 401
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:26 am

Re: Mob TP; petition/plea/cry for help

Post by Icon » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:32 pm

I'll give you a TLDR here since TP has been a hot topic since before we even opened the server. I've read most of the threads I've been able to find through google search. Maybe you can find a good BlueGartr thread on it because I cannot and I also cannot read Japanese (many threads reference Japanese research.)

TLDR: Mobs gain TP at a specific rate from combat, that rate never changes unless they have regain,etc. Mobs use TP at different rates depending on their HP% and abilities. They use TP less at high HP and more at lower HP. If they have regain they'll obviously TP attack more.

I think most people are remembering TOAU+ in terms of how often mobs attack. That's not your fault, I didn't remember myself so I had to do quite a bit of reading and observing. In TOAU you really didn't fight mobs for a long time or in range of their WS because you were in one of two types of parties typically: 1) a TP burn where all players were /NIN or NIN and you crushed mobs quickly or 2) a manaburn where you were never in WS range. I remember meriting on my RNG on colibri and I would solo kill colibri sidewinder > barrage > sidewinder between pulls for example. The pace of combat and the strategy required for it is very different in this era.

Also... I thought this went without saying but things like "I quit not retail" does not help us fix the server or make it more like retail. Neither do insults. We need evidence from old threads/videos preferably both for changes to be made.

cheezcake
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:04 pm

Re: Mob TP; petition/plea/cry for help

Post by cheezcake » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:25 pm

I just feel bad for the Paladins lol

Alexander
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:33 pm

Re: Mob TP; petition/plea/cry for help

Post by Alexander » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:56 pm

I'm not sure how helpful this is, but have you looked into some threads regarding Subtle Blow? Surely a lot of those threads will have accurate TP testing and I know a lot of people were testing Subtle Blow before ToAU when the "popular" merit spot was Sky on weapons. TP burns in Sky tried to minimize Weapon TP attacks so they did a lot of testing with it. I'll look for some when I'm back home on my PC.

Treble
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:27 pm

Re: Mob TP; petition/plea/cry for help

Post by Treble » Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:00 pm

I'll keep digging through forums, icon, but here's some information with just a cursory search.

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?f ... 1680&num=1

https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/35321 ... melee-hits

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?f ... 1515974109

http://ffxiclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Tactical_Points <--- This thread in particular has how TP was changed as well as the old formulas/calculations for reference

The best videos era generally are maat fights but I'll look specifically today for stuff in sky, I think we're more likely to find information once the first major time sink of the game was implemented. I'm only just now home from work, but I'll keep looking.

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