Feature Request: Increased Availability of Ancient Magic & Tier 4 Black Magic (Formerly Only NPC Sale)

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Tele
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Feature Request: Increased Availability of Ancient Magic & Tier 4 Black Magic (Formerly Only NPC Sale)

Post by Tele » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:09 pm

I’d like to float a request to the developers to consider adding late game (50+) BLM spells to existing spell merchants. I know current retail does it - for reasons like low population, lack of AH sales, etc. https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Susu If they’re already here somewhere, please disregard.

From what I’ve seen thus far, Tier IVs and AMs are a rare presence on the AH, I think there are three or four Freeze sales since server start. I have also heard that some of the mobs that drop some of the more powerful Tier IVs and AMs are quite stingy on providing the scrolls, not to mention 65+ mob level.

As a first job to 75, the lack of being able to purchase the scrolls certainly impairs the leveling experience. Not that it’s impossible, but I would really like to manaburn with like minded BLMs 50+ and have it be comparable xp/hr to the TP burns that are popular on server - realizing that they might not reach those heights but better/safer than solo beast pet xp. Not that it’s not doable - clearly it is as there are 75 BLMs on the server, I was just hoping to make the experience more social (partying vs solo) by easing availability of some of these spells.

Thank you for the consideration. Love what you guys are doing here.

-Edited to change the name to a Feature Request. Also checked AH again. There appear to be some tier IIIs and IVs but not all. There appear to be some AMs but few have actual sales to back them. Some have disappeared with the AH cleanup and have not returned, so I assume that may mean the player had put them up a long time ago and has stopped playing the server.
Last edited by Tele on Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Scott
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Re: Feature Request: NPC Sale of Ancient Magic & Tiers 3&4 Black Magic

Post by Scott » Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:13 pm

I’m sure if you farmed enough gil and ask around some high level would farm it for you for the right price. I know I would if I was playing right now.

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StardewValley
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Re: Feature Request: NPC Sale of Ancient Magic & Tiers 3&4 Black Magic

Post by StardewValley » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:13 pm

While I agree it's awesome everyone has the spells, it totally devalues them. It's great to see BLMs who put in the time and stand out during endgame. It is a private legacy server... everything feels like an accomplishment on Kupo and it's awesome <3 It's why we're here instead of retail. We miss the old days :D I'm confident the population will grow as well.

I'm saying all of this as someone currently leveling BLM(34).
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Crasy
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Re: Feature Request: NPC Sale of Ancient Magic & Tiers 3&4 Black Magic

Post by Crasy » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:51 pm

Gotta agree with Stardew, it's a lot more exciting to go hunt for spells than to farm leeches or whatever for hours. And it would feel like just another short route to max out.
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Tele
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Re: Feature Request: NPC Sale of Ancient Magic & Tiers 3&4 Black Magic

Post by Tele » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:23 pm

I appreciate the input guys, but respectfully I disagree. I played 75 WHM, 75 BLM, and 75 RDM (in that order) in Era so I’ve got a pretty good hold on how the past was.

During the retail years I played, ‘04-‘08, these spells were not available through NPC, as current retail, and were available only through the AH. I never experienced a lack of spells being a problem in Era. It was primarily a lack of funds and not the lack of availability of the spells that was the challenge for a BLM at that time. It was all about farming that gil or getting the big item drop from an NM or BCNM.

Actually, that doesn’t sound much different from farming for hours at leeches or whatever NPC’able drop you choose, or spamming BCNM, or hunting NMs and hoping for a drop - the current gil making options in Kupo. I never farmed ANY of my BLM spells in Era, even when BLM was my second 75 job and I had HNMLS buddies to farm it if I wanted to. So, I’m kind of amazed at the sentiment that making these spells available at pretty steep NPC prices is somehow an Easy Button. To suggest such, is almost insulting the more I think about this. It’s almost like nostalgia is trying to make Kupo harder than Era.

Trying to replicate the full blown “Era” experience is sometimes just not feasible. We have various work arounds to accommodate a small player base, ie level sync, Explorer Moogles, other spells being NPC’able, etc.

This also wouldn’t make these spells “devalued” on the AH. Far from it. If a player happens to be snag a drop, they merely slightly undercut the NPC price and someone would likely pay it - shit, I know I would. I would argue having next to no supply artificially inflates the value beyond what the game designers intended.

Hell the sales history for Freeze is 40k x 2 and 50k. Both less than the current retail NPC sales price that I proposed. Would I rather pay 40-50k versus 52.5k, absolutely. Would I prefer there to be the spells on the AH, yup. But I would also prefer there be the option to farm the gil, like I did in Era mind you, to snag the spell instead of being forced to farm it myself or pay someone else to do it for me.

The other option, which I am currently pursuing is to level a different job to 65-70 (RDM currently 60) so that I can then farm the items with my RL buddy also leveling a different job beside BLM - we were wanting to static manaburn to 75.

Hin
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Re: Feature Request: NPC Sale of Ancient Magic & Tiers 3&4 Black Magic

Post by Hin » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:44 pm

The problem is, the demand for these spells are not as high as they were on the retail servers so it doesn't give the thieves that used to farm up in castle O or beadeaux much incentive to do so on here. They might have sold 1 or 2 per day on retail, while on here they might sell 1 or 2 per month. I have no idea what these higher level blm spells cost, haven't looked. Because it's such a small server, it seems like most people are more tight knit in their linkshells. Often times the scrolls that do drop never make it to the AH because the LS gives them to their members. Have you tried finding a LS that is helpful, or asking your LS to help you get the drops? I know mine usually wouldn't have any problem helping out with something like this.

I have no preference one way or the other as I am not going to level blm, but putting them on a NPC when the drop actually exists just doesn't seem like a good idea. Would take away potential farming spots as well. It's not the same thing as what they did for nin spells as those were impossible to get. I would imagine they will remove the workaround they made for them once fishing gets added.

Tele
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Re: Feature Request: NPC Sale of Ancient Magic & Tiers 3&4 Black Magic

Post by Tele » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:52 pm

Hi Hin, thanks for the thoughts. I believe that you certainly are spot on on the analysis of why they’re so few on AH.

On the AH it’s actually quite hit or miss depending on whether there are sales or not for various magic. The AMs for example, iirc Freeze had three sales all time, quake and tornado maybe two, flare and flood either one or none, and burst had more.

There tends to be more Bursts on the AH and sales primarily because it drops from a popular NM - Mysticmaker Profblix which drops the Moldy earring. So part of the issue is that the mobs that drop these spells are more out of the way or ignored for whatever reason. With Freeze for instance - it drops off Haunts in Eldieme (also coffee key mobs but there are more preferable coffee key mobs) and Taxim/his PHs and Spartoi Sorcerers in KRT. All much less killed to never killed mobs for various reasons on Kupo - mainly the reasons you identified.

Another example Bliz IV has few to no sales because it’s a 1% drop from a lottery spawned NM - Taxim or his PHs. One of the 75 BLMs I know had been camping it for some time, racking up Leaping Lizzy levels of kills without the drop.

To me, the dynamics of Era clearly aren’t replicable with some of these spells/drops, there isn’t the demand to justify farming/isn’t enough supply to justify the demand. It’s kind of chicken and egg situation here. One side of the equation won’t be fixed unless the other is as well, so it probably isn’t going to ever get fixed.

I do have an LS that is helpful and active endgame, I just would rather not take their time away from much more productive endeavors to farm an item that should be readily available, and was readily available in Era due to the dynamics of Era as previously discussed.

Personally I just would prefer the decision tree to be the same as Era for items like this: you could either (i) value your gil more than time and try to farm the item (with friends), or (ii) value your time more and buy the item from the AH/NPC.

Currently for some of these items the only option is spend time to farm - either your (and friends) time or buying someone else’s time (and yours to get the drop/ensure it happens). So essentially it’s only an unquantifiable/unknowable time with wide variability. Farming the gil tends to have much less variability - you typically know an approximate gil/hr - than farming an item. Personally, I tend to to place a much higher value on time certainty than gil. A choice I could make in Era but cannot now.

In the end, I just don’t see the downside of adding it to an NPC. Yes it’s droppable, but at such a low rate or out of the way it isn’t readily available. With Ninja spells after inclusion of fishing, I would assume even with the availability for NPC purchase, some people would buy the fished items for a lower aggregate price than the NPC direct purchase to do the quest or fish the items themselves.

Hin
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Re: Feature Request: NPC Sale of Ancient Magic & Tiers 3&4 Black Magic

Post by Hin » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:12 pm

I understand the sentiment, but its a slippery slope type of thing. If they start adding low % drops to a NPC, where do they draw the line? Is it only the highest level scrolls with low drop rates? All job scrolls that are low rate?

I'm not trying to belittle the concern you have, but I have no real solution to the problem other than to get a party and farm it yourself. If it was impossible to get, that would be a different story. Blizz 4 being so rare is an unfortunate side effect of there not being any quested weaponskills yet (I think?). KRT bones parties used to be a popular thing, but with no asuran fists, it doesn't seem like it would be worth trying to get a party together for it. I manaburned out there a number of times. Not sure how viable a manaburn is on the server with scrolls being rare. BLMs seem rare past 37 even.

Ancient magic was nothing more than a fun toy so not having that isn't gimping anybody too severely. Blizz 4 though, yeah that's a necessary one. Grinding the skeletons in KRT is probably the best way to farm them though.

Crasy
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Re: Feature Request: NPC Sale of Ancient Magic & Tiers 3&4 Black Magic

Post by Crasy » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:46 pm

I feel like the only things that should even be considered to be added to NPCs are things we cannot get in game due to technical difficulties. Yes it's hard, I stil dont have blizz 4 on my 75 blm but I also don't want to just get it handed to me. Makes it so much sweeter to say you got all spells.

Ps. when I say handed to me I do it because farming gil is something you can easily do solo, I want the "team up or die" mentality this game once had to keep going.
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Tele
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Re: Feature Request: NPC Sale of Ancient Magic & Tiers 3&4 Black Magic

Post by Tele » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:04 pm

I am getting a bit frustrated because I don’t read my argument being directly addressed. Namely availability in Era provided two options (1) purchase on AH, or (2) farm for the drop. Number 1 doesn’t exist/ isn’t viable here currently, we’d should solve it by doing NPC sale to better recreate the options of Era.

I’ve seen tangental arguments related to how do we decide which to include for NPC sale (slippery slope, can’t do it, can’t address), or it’s an achievement this way (can’t do it, makes the game too easy).

First, please don’t say I want it handed to me or Easy Button or any other synonym of “hand out” if you don’t mean it as an ad hominem argument and certainly don’t tout the server as “Era” because clearly we’ve made plenty of exceptions elsewhere to make the game enjoyable/viable with a max population at peak of ~160.

There’s always a slippery slope argument to be made for any exception to any rules or laws. But slippery slopes always over state unquantifiable consequences that are yet to happen and potentially never happen.

Examples of slippery slopes with hefty amounts of sarcasm.
Level Sync - I mean having level sync could make leveling too easy, which means everyone is 75 and nobody is having to grind for it and thus people burn out too quickly and get bored and the server population craters.
- Middle ground solution level sync within 20 levels only.

Expanding Level Sync outside of 20 levels - Ahhh!!! We’re going to be Nasomi! Everyone will level 10-75 in the Dunes! Omg. Horrible, awful idea. That’s too easy, it has to be struggle because without a struggle there’s no sense of accomplishment. Arg. Everyone will be 75 Easy Button and get burned out and the server population would crater.
- Middle ground solution of level sync outside of 20 levels with XP penalties which seems to be working out pretty well. Players have more options, server population continues to grow. I haven’t seen a 70 character syncing down to the Dunes for an Easy Button to 75. Maybe, maybe people have chosen to do this to level with friends.

How do you stop a slippery slope - choose a middle ground. There’s nothing saying that with increasing server population and actually availability through the market, that these can’t be removed from NPC sale. It could be as basic as we’ve had 2 sales each month for the past two months, it looks like a market is finally emerging, let’s remove this feature. Sounds like what they could do with Ninjitsu spells requiring fished items. Start seeing the fished items and spells on the AH, drop the NPC sale.

As to deciding which rare spells to include, that’s a tough call, but an example might be Mage’s Ballad II. Current retail still requires it to be obtained only from a coffer. http://ffxiclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Bard As you can see, other high level Bard scrolls are available through NPC and some are not. The ones that are not NPC, appear to have higher drop rates/have bard testimonies. I don’t know. The rhyme or reason doesn’t appear to make a lot of sense I’ll concede that, but it provides some kind of reasonable guide as to which could be available through NPC.

RDM Refresh is still only available from BCNM or a single NM. But Refresh is also readily available since it’s a popular BCNM (UO). Dispel is currently NPC’able.

On the BLM list a number of the spells, like Freeze and Bliz IV, are also available as drops from various BCNMs/ENMs - most of which are disabled - or in an expansion not yet released/never to be released. Obviously those increased the pipeline of drops in retail, which with lower population SE abandoned for NPC. Bliz IV specifically came from BCNMs in TOAU which clearly we don’t have. Maybe the majority of the sales on AH or Era came from BCNM drops, I can’t recall, it wasn’t an issue to argue over in Era.

I understand the “achievement” / “team up or die” point, but XI already has so many of these kinds of choke points that require it - G1, G2, G5 (farming testimonies), virtually all of AF, Nation Missions, ZMs, soon to be CoP Missions, soon to be WS NMs, etc etc. Does adding, remember Era didn’t have this problem, this as an “achievement” enrich the game experience on Kupo, really... Really?

I don’t know about you, but my memorable experiences were beating CoP before they made it easier, low manning Limbus runs, getting Joy Toy, nabbing Moldy solo as a whm/nin, Reverend Mail, Rostrum Pumps, OHat runs, etc. None of which included getting a spell. Not once could I recall the exhilaration of getting a spell, other than to sell for gil to fund other purchases. I recall my, with RL friends, first Erase drop from a BC40 when we were broke newbs in ‘04. That’s the only spell, and that was only for gil.

I’m fine with keeping the option to farm for the drop to get that exhilaration from getting a rare spell. But I’d like the option to put my time and effort towards grinding to 75 to experience some of my list above, instead of adding a whole new “achievement” that I consider frivilous/non-sensical. It wasn’t this way in Era, why make it worse for such a non achievement “achievement”. As current, you have the option to enjoy it your preferred Era way, and currently I do not have my preferred Era option. It’s plain as that.

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